The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2 - Cisco's Micra Files

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 24 Feb 2013 05:33:23 PM
	Thread was getting a bit long so created page 2 and the Turbo build continues........ Been a bit slack over the past couple of weeks but finally got the paint done, must say not really a fun job a lot of work to do it right (or try to do it right). I removed all panels, hatch and doors, removed all rubber moulds, latches, locks, handle, etc to minimise masking off. The engine bay is the only place that wasn't resprayed. Paint completed in Flat clear Young Gun Grey. Theres a few rough bits but overall its not a bad job for a home job.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 24 Feb 2013 05:47:02 PM
	Pic of the rear. De-badged, wiper removed, slight tint on the tail lights, and the rear bar with Wald add-on Looking pretty stealth I think it should do well in avoiding detection from radars :p
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RTK » CMF Member Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 24 Feb 2013 06:05:24 PM
	Color looks good :)

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 24 Feb 2013 06:17:54 PM
	Anyway got a lot planned for the near future, a lot of new part on the horizon thanks to all the guys parting out there mad Micras. Got my 2mm copper head gasket being made atm by O'brien Aluminium @ South Windsor. In the process of swapping the N13 VLSD into the N15 gearset and bellhouse (thanks Tye), I think I'll be paying someone to put it back together as I don't want to stuff it up ie. installing the selector etc. Will get the turbo manifold finished in week or so. Will be doing a rear disc brake swap (thanks ClimberJoel) plus installing a full suspension package F/R whiteline swaybars, lower control arm brace, front strut brace, castor kit, rear adjustable trailing arm, adj panhard rod and probably make a rear strut brace. This should work well with the coilover setup. Once the head gasket is back I will put the engine back together, once the gearbox is done, everything back into the micra. Plenty of work ahead and heaps more to go before it's on the road, hoping to get it on the road by July/August this year. WIll keep updating......
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Doom » CMF Member Adelaide Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 24 Feb 2013 06:42:18 PM
	Looks sik. Keep the updates coming. Deleted the double post also

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 27 Feb 2013 08:17:36 PM
	Got my 2mm copper head gasket today, very happy with the job. Seems to fit well. If anyone else is interested in purchasing a copper head gasjet check out http://www.obrien-aluminium.com.au/gasket_1.html they make them between .55mm to 3mm, mine costed $148 which is cheap compared to other quotes I got one from a place up at Qld wanted $350 for a 2mm copper head gasket. Not much more than you would pay for a genuine HG from Nissan.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 27 Feb 2013 08:19:05 PM
	Another pic
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 27 Feb 2013 08:27:22 PM
	Started cleaning the head up a bit today. Whats the go with the exhaust valve seats on these CG13de. Everyone I've pulled apart the exhaust side of the valves seem to need a regrind (pitted) and the intake side seems good, wonder why that is? You can see the difference between the exhaust valve seat that has been reground on the right compared to the one on the left. Although from the pic it doesn't look like it but the intake valve seats seem good, what do you guys think regrind them anyway while I'm doing it or if it ain't broke don't fix it?
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 27 Feb 2013 08:48:12 PM
	Tried to clean up the mating surface on the head and deck as well. I used metho and scothbrite pads to clean it up. came up ok but needs a bit more work. Anyone had experience in install a copper head gasket, as I believe they can be hard to seal properly. I have read some people use hylomar spray only and some use hylomar spray as well as RTV sealant around oil/water galleries. Not sure how to I should seal between the water gallery and the cylinder (see photo) I'm concerned if RTV sealant is used around this section, when the head is torqued down the sealant may ooze into the cylinder bore. Any help would be appreciated.
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 27 Feb 2013 09:18:14 PM
	thats a damn good price for the H/G dan ! good luck getting it to seal tho lol. i would just smear a branded gasket sealant all over personally, has it been annealed ? and just grind all the valves eh (yours is normal wear and tear)

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 27 Feb 2013 10:01:57 PM
	Don't believe it has been annealed, I'll have to check but I've read that copper HG don't always need to be annealed if you are not using o-ringed deck. Not sure if that's true ill have to check.

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Thu 07 Mar 2013 09:14:01 PM
	Got the runners for the turbo manifold welded up and tacked into position .
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Thu 07 Mar 2013 09:14:57 PM
	The collector also welded up.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Thu 07 Mar 2013 09:21:18 PM
	Just gotta make a plate to go on the bottom of the collector. Made up a crappy template but it will do the trick. Once the plates is done a weld will be done around the runners to seal it, then the collector will be welded to the base plate.
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Pierce » CMF Member Logan Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 08 Mar 2013 03:52:18 AM
	Danvillan! This stuff is great, as fun to watch and think about as franks stuff :D Was just wondering, as another post of mine on the forum recently stated, I too am gonna try my hand at welding. Was wondering what TIG welder you have, how much it costs and would you recommend it for not only header fabrication but also for thinner aluminum jobs i.e. making an overflow tank for the coolant? Any help appreciated mate :D Also for anyone in the know; surely I can complete great weld jobs without the need of a foot pedal and argon gas regulator? I'd like to get a welder for around the $1k mark not the 2k mark...

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 08 Mar 2013 07:35:32 AM
	Hey Pierce, I only have a cheap gassless MIG welder which is good for nothing really but I use it to tac weld things together and then get a mate to finish the welds (even then he whinges about the slag in the welds when he has to go over the top of my tac welds). For the 1k mark you should be able to get a TIG (secondhand) or a good MIG off ebay, you can get small disposable bottes of argon from Repco but their only small and I don't know how long they last. I'm by no means even close to knowledgable about welding but the guys who know about welding will tell you got to run gas to get even a half descent job. Also noticed your interested in making an intake manifold, look at page 1 of this thread http://www.micra.com.au/community/message.php?messageid=82211 and there is info about the design and the principles of the dimensions. There are other factors that need to be taken into account is it for turbo or n/a as the length of the intake runners effect torque. Turbos need a bigger plenum volume than n/a. There is plenty of info on the net about plenum intake designs just do some research and then you shouldn't need dimensions you'll be able to make yours to the custom dimension needed for your application. If you want dimension I can supply the ones I used for my one, if you want them just let me know.

Pierce » CMF Member Logan Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 08 Mar 2013 04:20:08 PM
	Thanks Danvillan, not to hijack ur thread, but I went for this bad boy. http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/brisbane-south-west/other-tools-diy/weldsmart-tig-185-acdc-inverter-welder-24-month-warranty-toshiba/1013597005 should do everything I want it to :D If anyone thinks otherwise, just pm me, try to leave the thread clean :D

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Tue 19 Mar 2013 11:30:31 AM
	Got my box back... N15 bellhousing and gearset with n13 VLSD.... :) Ready to be installed once the motor is up and running which an another issue.... ;(
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Tue 19 Mar 2013 12:17:26 PM
	So I was given a jap import block which had previously been turbo charged running 7psi boost (thanks Tye) and I decided to pull it apart to see how the bottom end held up to turbo charging. Well as you can see from the pistons cylinder 1 and 2 have cracked ringlands. Now this has made me reconsider the whole stock bottom end thingy with my build. So unfortunately (for my wallet) I think I'm going to have to build a forged bottom end just to ease my mind and ensure that it stays reliable on 12 to 15 psi. Suggestion about where to get forged pistons and rods. So far .... SPS pistons - $1300 - $1400 = 1 to 2 weeks wait PAR rods - $1150 = 8 weeks wait CP pistons from Quantum Industries = $1000+ = 8 to 10 weeks wait Argo rods = $1400 = 6 - 8 weeks wait. Anone know of any other options? I know Humphries have a set but I think they may be high compression ones. So I think I'm looking at $3500 for the bottom end, this is going to sting the wallet, damn money pit...lol
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Tue 19 Mar 2013 12:24:51 PM
	I suppose another option is to get the rods shot peened and the stock pistons cryo frozen, any opinons?

frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Tue 19 Mar 2013 06:12:30 PM
	they,ve just det,d eh dan, i det,d loads of pistons like that before i got the nistune board. and i,ve been running the (very weak looking) CGA3 pistons @ 12psi for nearly 6 months now :)

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sat 23 Mar 2013 08:20:54 PM
	Rear axel swap today to Super S disc brakes. Will swap the rotars at a later date with some slotted one.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sat 23 Mar 2013 08:22:56 PM
	Whiteline adjustable trailing arm, whiteline drop links and whiteline swaybar installed.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sat 23 Mar 2013 08:27:23 PM
	Ohlins adjustable shocks and Tien rear spring. Panhard rod also installed. So the rear end is sorted with full polly bushes on all connection. Plenty of adjustments available for the right ride setup.
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RTK » CMF Member Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sat 23 Mar 2013 08:29:41 PM
	Danvillan WROTE: "So I was given a jap import block which had previously been turbo charged running 7psi boost (thanks Tye) and I decided to pull it apart to see how the bottom end held up to turbo charging. Well as you can see from the pistons cylinder 1 and 2 have cracked ringlands. Now this has made me reconsider the whole stock bottom end thingy with my build. So unfortunately (for my wallet) I think I'm going to have to build a forged bottom end just to ease my mind and ensure that it stays reliable on 12 to 15 psi. Suggestion about where to get forged pistons and rods. So far .... SPS pistons - $1300 - $1400 = 1 to 2 weeks wait PAR rods - $1150 = 8 weeks wait CP pistons from Quantum Industries = $1000+ = 8 to 10 weeks wait Argo rods = $1400 = 6 - 8 weeks wait. Anone know of any other options? I know Humphries have a set but I think they may be high compression ones. So I think I'm looking at $3500 for the bottom end, this is going to sting the wallet, damn money pit...lol " CP have gone up in price, when I check they were 8-900, speak to JCMicra he runs standard everything engine wise and has 10psi with 170kws, running haltec platinum 500! Are you going to run a dizzy? For 12-15psi

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sat 23 Mar 2013 08:44:56 PM
	RTK WROTE: CP have gone up in price, when I check they were 8-900, speak to JCMicra he runs standard everything engine wise and has 10psi with 170kws, running haltec platinum 500! Are you going to run a dizzy? For 12-15psi " Probably not. gotta try and work out a external coil pack setup, I'm not real cluey about the ignition setup or how it will be done. Still not sure if I'll go forged or just get the piston and rods treated in some way.

Pierce » CMF Member Logan Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 24 Mar 2013 01:44:29 AM
	Danvillan, I replied to your email mate. If you're interested in the path I was going, let me know and we'll see if there's a discount in it for a group purchase. That aside, when you figure out your coilpack setup, let me know, I'm clueless about it myself right now :D

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 06:28:24 PM
	It's been a little while since an update. So heres whats going on. T25 turbo is being striped and rebuild before being fitted. Might sand blast the exhaust housing and do a DIY ceramic coating, just the cheap VHT pressure pack stuff. I'll probably upgrade the turbo to a BB turbo anyway.

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 06:28:52 PM
	It's been a little while since an update. So heres whats going on. T25 turbo is being striped and rebuild before being fitted. Might sand blast the exhaust housing and do a DIY ceramic coating, just the cheap VHT pressure pack stuff. I'll probably upgrade the turbo to a BB turbo anyway.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 06:33:59 PM
	I have to turn the flange on the dump pipe so it fits the top mount turbo. Picked the dump pipe up for $15 buck off ebay....bargin.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 07:04:16 PM
	Got the pieces for the DIY stainless exhaust system. 2.5" stainless steel mandrel bent. So far the parts have costed: Rival Muffler = $50 3 x 90' 2.5"bends = $60 ($20 per bend) 4 x 45' 2.5 bends= $80 ($20 per bend) xforce resonator = $80 2meters 2.5" polished stainless tube = $60 (won't need that much) 6 x stainless flanges = $55 dump pipe = $15 Total = $400 or so. Pretty cheap for a full mandrel bent stainless exhaust.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 07:06:53 PM
	The muffler I got for cheap but it was a bit long for the micra so had to chop about 60mm of it. I'll get it tig welded back up.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 07:07:57 PM
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 07:09:18 PM
	Got some Tomei poncams today.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Wed 29 May 2013 07:16:39 PM
	Decided to change the runners on my intake manifold. I'm going to use some 90' mandrel bends to stand the plenum upright and increase the lengths of the runner to about 200mm. I'm doing this so the torque comes down the rpm's a bit and pulls better down low. I was concerned that it would be a bit sluggish due to the huge plenum, sr20 TB and the short runners. So had to cut the existing runners off. Using bends is the only way to lengthen the runners without hitting the firewall.
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micratech » CMF Member Geithus Norway Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 31 May 2013 09:04:40 AM
	Love this! And that flat color is just caused a major jawdrop. So nice!! :O

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:33:08 PM
	Had the runner extended today. TIG welded some 38mm mandrel bent tubes. The runner length is close to 12 inches now, so should bring down the torque down in the rpm range.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:36:02 PM
	The finished product. I'm interested to see how the manifold performs most of the custom manifolds I've seen on this forum are short runner which are good for top end power but mine is going to be a daily driver so I want a more usable power range.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:39:46 PM
	Turbo manifold continued... rather than making a plate as I stated above I cut just small pieces to fill the gaps and TIG welded them in place
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:40:26 PM
	After welding
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:41:36 PM
	Placed the collector on top and welded it from the outside. (sorry bad pic)
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:49:33 PM
	turbo manifold completed, just need to clean and sandblast the inside to remove any dags/slag hanging around. Probably do a DIY ceramic coat like the exhaust turbine housing. I decided to use the collector design on the manifold to promote the bernoulli effect within the manifold which hopefully assist in a faster spooling time. Heres a good video which explains this principle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:55:12 PM
	Also got the motor back from the machine shop. Block decked and o-ringed.The head was skimmed very slightly to clean it up for a good mating surface. Let the rebuild begin I'm a bit nervous first car engine rebuild (built a couple of bike engines before) hope it holds up to the turbo charger.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:56:48 PM
	Close up of the o-ring in the block
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Sun 09 Jun 2013 07:58:36 PM
	oil return welded into the sump.
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 10 Jun 2013 06:02:35 AM
	lookin great dan :) what material are the rings mate ?

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 10 Jun 2013 07:58:29 AM
	Frank, I honestly don't know what material the ring are, just asked the shop to do it. Why do you ask? Reactions between the materials?

frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 10 Jun 2013 08:15:39 AM
	nah, just wondering if they are copper, or something harder dan :) i,m testing out something similar next week (fire-rings cut from an mls CR 1.0/1.2/1.4 headgasket)
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 10 Jun 2013 08:28:38 AM
	Also started fabricating the turbo dump pipe, I'm going for an open chamber with a splitter plate between the exhaust turbine and wastegate. This plate extends from the dump pipe flange into the turbo housing to separate the exhaust turbine and wastegate, this is done to reduce the turbulence that is created when the void between the 2 section is left open. This will hopefully reduce spool up time a bit.

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 10 Jun 2013 08:29:24 AM
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 10 Jun 2013 09:31:07 AM
	Frank, there definitely not copper it's something harder. I have to go back to the machine shop tomorrow I'll ask them what they used.

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 07:57:47 AM
	Bottom end rebuilt with new piston rings and seals. 2mm copper HG installed.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 07:59:46 AM
	Used 3bond 1207B liquid gasket to seal the HG.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 08:02:49 AM
	Tomei cam and new timing chain kit installed. Not to sure about the timing, the valves don't seem to contacting the pistons while cranking the motor.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 08:06:25 AM
	Picture of the idler sprocket and the cam sprockets @ TDC. Anyone know if this looks right? From the Haynes manual and what i've read on here it seem to be right.
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 05:06:28 PM
	looks bang-on to me dan :)

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 05:43:15 PM
	Well it should have been right because I followed your advise on the "me again" thread which had about 100 posts about setting the timing chain, camshafts, etc. Test fit of the intake and turbo manifold. There only about 10mm between the exhaust housing and the cam cover. I'm going to need a blanket so I don't melt it.
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 05:44:54 PM
	intake manifold.... hopefully my measurements were correct or there will be no strut brace for me.
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frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 07:55:29 PM
	Danvillan WROTE: "Well it should have been right because I followed your advise on the "me again" thread which had about 100 posts about setting the timing chain, " :) with used chains i find that the lobes line up with the edge of the bolts eh dan, and when i dial them in to get equal overlap @ tdc the exh one tends to advance a few degrees (like yours looks like ^ as a result of the new chains i guess ?) have you measured the overlap of those tomei,s mate ? the stock timings are supposed to be 42/0/0/42 eh (no overlap in theory, tho my 4 buckets contact the cams for about 20 deg either side of tdc)
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Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 09:17:15 PM
	The over lap is intake opens @ roughly 27 deg & the exhaust closes @ roughly 35-40 deg so somewhere around 65 deg of overlap. Does that sound right? I guess the exhaust being advanced a bit is making the difference between the two. Once the chain stretches a bit will the intake increase or the exhaust decrease in degrees?

frank2 » CMF Member birmingham United Kingdom Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Fri 14 Jun 2013 09:36:02 PM
	yes that sounds good dan :) i guess the new chains will bed in for a few days, and that,ll give about 33 deg either side eh. you will probably get some unburned charge passing through under boost with that much overlap, but it should pass emissions np off boost tho hopefully :)

Danvillan » CMF Member Mulgoa Australia Member since: Posts:	Re: The DIY turbo build thread - Page 2	Mon 17 Jun 2013 08:30:55 PM
	next page http://www.micra.com.au/community/message.php?messageid=84702&r=21